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Re: Transcript: Larry Brennan Interview
Transcript of Glosslip Larry Brennan interview, 10:00 - 20:00
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[10:00]LB: One that did actually overt illegal actions on huge proportions. Like breaking into the US Government and infiltrating and thinking of killing Paulette Cooper and just dirty ops and dirty tricks. Now, not everybody in the Guardian's Office knew of that stuff. So although the Guardian's Office was greatly maligned and it should have been taken down, I mean because top leaders were involved in that criminal stuff, still most people in there didn't know about it and wouldn't have done that stuff. The problem is, most people in the Guardian's Office, just like most people on Scientology staff today in my opinion, like whether they're in the Sea Org or the Commodore's Messenger's Organization or whatever, are probably pretty good people. Just very dedicated and believe in what they're doing. And they, just like so many people in the GO didn't know about all those crimes, the vast majority of staff in Scientology have no clue of the crimes and perjuries and abuses
[11:00]on the part of Miscavige and organized Scientology. So having said that, what I've done were... that I regret, I suppose if I went back in time, I'd say "I wish I wasn't such a dupe into thinking Hubbard was a genius and everything he said I have to justify", and even if I saw something wrong in it, I would think, "Well, there's something wrong with me. I don't have enough of a confront of evil" or however he put it. I have to abide by what he says and back him up and support him. And I think that attitude and that mentality is kind of like a brainwashing, and I don't know if brainwashing's the right term, but it's like having a cloud over you. In every other part of life, you can see something and say, oh, that's wrong. But here, you see Hubbard do something wrong and you say, oh, it must be for the greatest good. Or something like that. So I think it's that attitude.
[12:00]Basically, my role in doing the corporate sort-out of Scientology, what I regret in it is not the intention behind it... because the declaration covers the intention, that it was going to be straight and clean this time and all that. But it was what a dupe I was to hand all— to be such a big part of handing all this power to Miscavige. Because if you look at it, the corporate evolution went in on about the 10th or so of December, some time in December 1981, like the Church of Scientology International gets started. And then a whole lot of other things get implemented that month, and the next few months of '82 and all that. And once that goes in, Miscavige starts his major wholesale abuses and beatings because he thinks he has a powerful legal structure. And if you look at even the book "A Piece of Blue Sky" or some of the affidavits since then, for example,
[13:00]the mission holders' meeting that happened after that corporate sort-out. Where doors were locked and Miscavige went in with the financial police and some of his top dogs and just abused the heck out of mission holders and extorted them for millions of dollars, gang-bang Sec Checking, screaming in their faces, that sort of stuff. Well, part of that briefing, and I wasn't at that mission holders' meeting, I was at the next one, but part of that briefing was a corporate briefing saying we've got our corporate structure straight now and now we're moving in and we're taking over the missions and we're going to get you to toe the line and we're strong now. It's just that idea that some of us put that structure together with a benign view of... yes, we believed Scientology and Hubbard at the time, but we believed everything was going to be straightened out and all the frauds of the past were going to be gone and this was going to be a new defensible structure, and it was nothing but a cover. So what I regret is being a dupe,
[14:00]in the sense of believing that the work we did was going to be what happened in reality as opposed to being something used by Miscavige to abuse other people. I don't know, does that make sense?
DO: Yeah, that does make sense. So what would you say... let's say I'm a lawyer, for example, we had the Sklar's lawyer Jeffrey Zuckerman on. And his client is suing the IRS for similar— what they would like are the same tax-exemption status, they want the same privileges as the Church of Scientology has. They're an Orthodox Jewish couple that sends their children off to Jewish religious schooling. So let's say I'm a lawyer and I'm fighting against the Church of Scientology and the IRS.
[15:00]What would you say was the most illegal aspect of their tax-exempt status that they have now? Why do they not deserve it—I mean, WE know why they don't deserve it—but what about it did they do to get that status that makes it so that they have something special no other religion has? Can you explain that?
LB: Well first of all, I wasn't in on exactly how they got the IRS into that amenable frame of mind. By the way, that used to be the product of B-1, Bureau One, a more amenable frame of mind on the part of all enemies. [laughs] And it was interpreted by them to mean using terrorist tactics, now that made people so afraid of you that they'd be afraid to speak out or they would just let you get away with whatever. So anyway, what they did to get the IRS into that amenable frame of mind, I don't know. But I can comment on why they didn't deserve it, from two perspectives. One, from what I know, and two, from what I'm told.
[16:00]The part from what I'm told, because I wasn't there then—and I believe there will be people testifying to this—is that in the several years of that negotiation, there were phony records created. There were real records hidden, buried, destroyed, as part of preparing the stuff to the IRS, that I believe would have ensured they would NOT have gotten the tax-exemption had they not lied. And that I can't speak on with any personal knowledge other than I've spoken with or seen the writings of people who were involved who say that happened. Some of whom I believe will testify. Now, for the things that I do know why they didn't deserve it? Well, I have read a number of their filings to the IRS even though I wasn't involved in it. And my background is, I set up those companies or most of those companies. I also was the only Scientology staff member to meet with the IRS after the corporate evolution in their headquarters in DC.
[17:00]So I'm familiar with what their attitude was, and it wasn't positive! [laughs]
DO: Right.
LB: But what we set up ended up being... what Scientology filed with them was all these statements about "here's who runs this, here's who runs the finances, here's what these corporations do, these corporations are unrelated to those and are not run by them, and this one doesn't have to do with that" and it was all a lie. To give it a crude overall basically correct summary, it's one big international organization hiding behind numerous corporate veils. That's not what they told the IRS! For example, Miscavige completely runs those organizations by running the top people in them. Most notably, Church of Scientology International. But even in the early years of his takeover, when he was in Author Services which was a for-profit company that wasn't supposed to be involved
[18:00]in organized Scientology's management. He ran the two top organizations of Scientology, which was the mother Church—Church of Scientology International—and the Religious Technology Unit—RTC—by running the top people in all of them. For example, he ran me who was in charge of Spec Unit and all those external affairs things. He ran Steve Marlowe who was running RTC. And he ran Mark Yeager and Mark Ingbert and top guys in the watchdog committee part of Church of Scientology International that managed the lower churches. So that was all lies. And it was all controlled by him. And millions and millions was funneled to Hubbard in fraudulent ways through that time period. And that certainly wasn't spoken to the IRS! Now what they did, if you noticed, the Church paid twelve and a half million dollars for the past. I suspect if the real truth was known, that bill would have been a heck of a lot more than twelve and a half million dollars.
[19:00]But whether or not it would have, all of those filings about those being separately-run companies and corporate integrity being in place and Miscavige not being involved are lies. So I would think that's fraud. I mean I'm not an attorney, but I would think that would show, that alone... forget the hidden records or the phony documents or whatever. That alone should show that since they lied in pertinent, relevant information filed with the IRS, that it at least should be reopened. I mean, wouldn't you?
DO: Yeah! Do you think there is enough body of evidence that this can be proven? What would it take to reopen this, do you think? And I know you're not... this isn't your specialization but this is the kind of information we want disseminated as much as possible and I know that Mr. Zuckerman, he's definitely open to any help his clients can get and we're certainly— the Church has yet to, no one has turned over this special agreement. We don't really know what it says.
[20:00]LB: Well, I think it first of all would have to be the IRS being willing to do it.
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