Transcript: Gerry Armstrong on Glosslip, 29.06.08

Objective: Transcription
Audio: **enhanced version thanx to timthephoto**
Original Audio: Blog Talk Radio
Harmonization and preparation of final version:
Final document:

Roster:
00-05: CherrieZ
05-10: Dubber
10-15: Dubber
15-20: Dubber
20-25: Dubber
25-30: Dubber
30-35:
35-40:
40-50:
50-55:
55-60:
60-65:
65-70:
70-75:
75-80:
80-85:
85-90:

*I broke it down into 5min chunks for n00bs but if you want to do more feel free
just make sure to post a msg so nobody else does it**

I've never started one of these before but I thought i'd dive right in and give it a try :) Any new anons are welcome to
help out. If you need software go to Express Scribe - Digital Transcription Playback System and download the free version of Express Scribe. You can slow down the audio if ur a crappy typer like me ;)

05-15

GA: Other Scientology operatives and agents [5:00] have done the same thing. They do that in order to black-PR me and give themselves a good reason to hate me. The fact is I don't have AIDS. I've never had AIDS, and the charge is absolutely ludicrous. That was just within the last few weeks up here in Vancouver.

Within the last few months the organization has been successful in getting Rogers Media, which is a major media conglomerate here in Canada, to kill an interview that had been done. I did a half-hour interview with one of their people, Randall Mark, and then a Scientology agent, Susan Kerr from Vancouver, threatened them [6:00] with litigation. They've killed the interview.

Canada's public media corporation, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, sent out a team here to Chilliwack and spent two days here videoing me for Sunday news on CBC. That was set up by Bruce Livesey. I believe his name is "Livesey" [short i] but lord knows. It could be "Livesey." [long i] I've always thought it was "Livesey" [short i] and I think that's the way that he pronounced it to me. In any case, he set up a CBC interview. One of their celebrity news people came out and we had a nice interview, and then the CBC got cold feet. Scientology [7:00] ran a small intel op on them involving a former friend of mine from inside the Sea Org by the name of Mark **Shefter. The CBC pulled the plug on that. Bruce, bless his soul, continued on and wrote that article, which Candian magazine Maisonneuve published to their credit. I think it took a lot of guts from Bruce and guts from Maisonneuve and its publisher Derek Webster to do that.

Susan Kerr involved a group here called the Multi-Faith Action Society, which sounds like a religious group, but there are a [8:00] number of Scientologists on the board of directors. They also got involved in killing the Rogers interview. It turns out that really, what Scientology uses them for is to suppress religious freedom and suppress criticism of the organization.

The Vancouver Film School, which is ironically right across the street from the Vancouver Organization where Anonymous and the rest of us folks picket the organization, were going to do a film story about me last summer. Scientology also shuddered them into silence. So the organization is very active to prevent me from communicating [9:00] up here even in Canada. They've disseminated a lot of black propaganda about me up here.

In 2004 and 2005 a Scientology operative leased an office space right across the street from where my wife Caroline and I live in little Chilliwack. This guy spied on me for the better part of a year and a half, and approached us, and tried to get close to us, and tried to inveigle me into doing a film for him. I was ultimately able to bust him and prove that he was a Scientology operative. In the middle of the night one night he just moved everything out of his place and disappeared. [10:00]

That's here in Canada just within the last few years. In the fall of 2007 the organization, which has continued litigation against me in California for many years, were able to get some jail sentences reinstated against me in Marin Superior Court. There are jail sentences awaiting me in California should I ever return.

DO: What does that mean? If you come to the United States, is there really a warrant for your arrest? Is that what that means? Could you really serve jail time?

GA: I'm not certain if the warrants for my arrest would be country-wide. I [11:00] certainly would be arrested in California. I also am not going to take a chance at this time in crossing the border, at least until I am able to get an attorney to represent me down there and take care of these matters. My case, even though it appears on the surface that Scientology has won, is actually a great case to take the organization on and would really be a great case for any attorney to get involved in. Of course Scientology, part of their religious tenets is to destroy any attorney who would dare to represent its victims, the suppressive persons. They crush them financially. They crush them with black propaganda. They crush them [12:00] with their intelligence operatives and private investigators. It's almost impossible to find attorneys in the US who will go up against the organization at this time.

At some time it will be possible. I will return to the United States. I will take care of those warrants and the orders against me. I believe that justice will prevail.

DO: Some of the orders against you sound immoral, illegal, unethical. What was the agreement that you signed so many years ago? Based on the research I've done, you've tried to help other ex-Scientologists extract themselves from the church. Is this what they're railing against? Is this what they're upset about, that you had the nerve to tell the truth about what had happened to you?

GA: Yeah, exactly. [13:00] They like to say that these orders exist against me for spreading lies or defaming the organization, but that's completely false. The fact is, I'm not allowed by these court orders to tell the truth about the organization. These orders stem from--

DO: Hello? Gerry, I think we lost you.

I don't know if anyone can hear Gerry. I can't hear him. If you can still hear me, maybe hang up and try dialing back in. I'm going to see if I can reboot the switchboard here.

Oh, don't you love live radio when things go wrong? I've been pretty lucky because we do a regular show during the week, and it seems like [14:00] he constantly has problems with his. I don't have them that often. I certainly don't want it on this show. Maybe Scientology infiltrated the switchboard here.

Gerry, can you hear me?

I think he's going to hang up and try calling back in. I'm going to hang it up on him so that it forces him to call back in. We obviously lost the call here. Just bear with me here while I get the switchboard back up. I promised I wouldn't talk smack about BlogTalkRadio, which I won't, because they allow me to air these shows. Without BlogTalkRadio I wouldn't be able to bring these wonderful guests to you, but we do have technical difficulties that happen sometimes. It's very frustrating.

The switchboard cleared. Hopefully he'll know what happened, and he'll call right back, and we'll start where we left off. I want to read something really quick while we wait for Gerry.

[from Maisonneuve article] "In [15:00] 1982, the church launched a lawsuit against Armstrong seeking the return of the Hubbard documents."

15-30

DO: I didn't get into this when I was doing the intro, but Gerry worked in the Sea Organization and worked with L. Ron Hubbard. He had been commissioned with the help of another writer, an outside person, to write this L. Ron Hubbard biography. It was during this discovery process that he found out that L. Ron Hubbard had lied about much of his background.

When he presented the fact to the Church of Scientology, they were none too happy hearing that their wonderful L. Ron Hubbard wasn't a naval officer of the highest order, and he didn't in fact graduate from George Washington University, and he in fact failed his only physics class. He was not a nuclear physicist like he said he was. When this happened, this is when the church started to go after Gerry.

I see another caller here. I'm going to see if this is Gerry. [16:00] Just hang on here, guys.

Gerry, is that you?

GA: Yes, it is.

DO: Oh, good. Did we have a little technical glitch there? I don't know if it kicked you off or what happened, but we have you back now. [laughs] Do you remember where you were at when you got kicked off?

GA: I was talking about the December 1986 settlement and the situation that I was put in. My attorney, Mike Flynn, was himself a tremendous fair game victim of Scientology and had been harassed. His life had been threatened. They'd framed him with a crime, the attempt to pass a two million dollar check on one of L. Ron Hubbard's accounts. He believed that they had attempted to assassinate him by messing with his private plane. He said that [17:00] they had ruined his marriage. They threatened his family and his practice. His life was being ruined by these people, and he was desperate to get out of the litigation. He'd been in settlement talks with Scientology's attorneys for many months. In order to get them to settle, he had to deliver me on a silver platter.

I was put in a position where, as the deal-breaker, Scientology promised that if I signed, they were going to knock off fair game forever against everyone. Not just me but against Mike Flynn, against his other 20 clients who were also participants in this global settlement, and against everyone. They wanted, in their language, to turn over a new leaf. At the same time, Flynn communicated to me that if I didn't sign, everyone would continue to be fair game and everyone would turn against me because I was preventing them from having fair game end.

It was a very troubling experience for me. I read this contract and I said, "Mike, I can't sign this thing." The essential elements of the contract are that I could not say one word about Scientology, even the word "Scientology." If I did, then Scientology would be due fifty thousand dollars per instance or utterance. On the other side of the contract, there's nothing that says that Scientology has to be quiet about me. Indeed, that's the way they interpreted it and the way they got a judge to interpret it. Scientology could say whatever it wanted about me no matter defamatory, no matter how perverse. In addition, they could commit virtually any crime against me because the contract even prohibited me from talking to the government or going to the police. It was so lopsided and also so impossible.

At this time I had been a fair game target for five years after leaving. I'd been inside [20:00] the organization for twelve and a half years. It really is impossible for someone in that situation to not talk about so many years of their very intimate, very troubling experiences. The contract said I couldn't even tell a psychologist, a psychiatrist or a doctor what had happened to me. I wasn't married at the time, but if I had a date with a woman and she said, "Hey, what's happened in your past," if I told her, fifty thousand dollars a pop. It was absolutely ludicrous on its face. At the same time it was so bizarre and so troubling that I had this vision of years and years in the future being [21:00] involved in this organization, in litigation, and back involved in fair game and fighting them. That's exactly the way it turned out. In fact, with the events that have been happening in the last several months, especially with Anonymous, it really has come full circle. The vision that I had way back in 1986 has truly been fulfilled.

In any case, I was faced with this tremendous dilemma. How could I have fair game end for all these people, in fact for virtually everyone around the world? At the same time I would be subject to this very immoral and onerous contract. In any case, I went ahead and [22:00] signed and put some faith in the hope that Scientology was really going to clean up its act and turn over a new leaf. The organization did not. Within days of my signing they dumped a mass of black propaganda on me to the Los Angeles Times. A reporter from the LA Times, which was then involved in doing the massive weeklong series of articles on Scientology, contacted me and alerted me. I said, "Well, you know, I'm not going to get involved at this time." I was tremendously disappointed and very heartbroken with what happened, and very troubled by it.

Not long after that, as well, the organization contacted a [23:00] former girlfriend of mine up here in Canada. I learned about that. They dumped a bunch of black propaganda on me to the London Sunday Times. They filed a bunch of perjured affidavits about me in court in London. This was the lawsuit that Scientology brought against Russell Miller, who wrote one of the classic Hubbard biographies, "Bare-Faced Messiah." The organization published a bunch of black propaganda about me in various venues. They disseminated an unlawful video that they had made of me in 1984 which Miscavige engineered and his head PI got involved in.

The [24:00] organization continued to black-PR me for three years. I did not speak out, I did not go public, and I bit my lip even though it was just terrible and a very sad period of time for me. Then I was served with a deposition subpoena in a case which Bent Corydon had brought against the organization. Bent Corydon is also the author of one of the major books on Hubbard, and his attorney served me with a deposition subpoena. I was contacted by a Scientology lawyer by the name of Lawrence Heller who had been involved in the writing of the contract. He threatened me with [25:00] prosecution if I even responded to the subpoena.

At that point, that for me was the end. I began to research my rights and determined that I simply could not remain silent. Scientology was continuing its black PR and fair game campaigns against its various victims. My friend, Bent Corydon, who's been a long-time critic of Scientology, I felt like I had to stand by him. What scientology really wanted me to do was help them fair-game Bent Corydon. The organization has been very successful in getting its former victims to then turn on other fair game victims. The [26:00] Aznarans did that and a number of people who have settled with the organization have ended up working with Scientology to further fair-game its remaining victims. I wouldn't go along with that. That's really when I got pulled back in actively into the litigation and into the fair game war, and have been involved on a day-to-day basis ever since.

When I began to speak out, one of the first things I did was testify pursuant to that subpoena for Bent Corydon. I also travelled to South Africa to testify on behalf of another victim of Scientology. The [27:00] organization then filed a motion in Los Angeles Superior Court to have the contract enforced against me. The judge, Judge Geernaert, had taken over my case from Judge Breckenridge, who had been the original judge on the case and who had retired. He issued a scathing judgment against the organization in which he said, "I know we like to settle cases, but we don't want to settle cases and in effect prostrate the court system into making an order which is not fair or in the public interest." So he shot down the organization and refused to enforce their contract.

Scientology then moved [28:00] north to Marin County and ultimately were able to get a judge, Gary Thomas, who stamped everything they wanted, gave them the injunction that they wanted, and enforced this fifty-thousand dollars per utterance liquidated damages penalty. Now, the law states that there has to be a reasonable relationship between the actual damages and liquidated damages. The idea that every time Gerry Armstrong says the word "Scientology" it's fifty thousand dollars a pop-- by the way, a "pop" is the technical term that their corporate officer used in a deposition in my case-- is [29:00] completely ludicrous. But it gets worse than that because it's fifty thousand dollars a pop per recipient. In 1992, for example, I wrote a letter to David Miscavige with carbon copies to 19 people. Scientology included that in one of their first lawsuits. They wanted $950,000 for writing to David Miscavige with these 19 copies.

You mentioned on your site that you've had twelve thousand counted listeners on your program for one of your interviews. If twelve thousand listen to this interview, that's $600 million. Let's say a million people listen to the words. Remember, all it takes is one word. That's $50 billion. If I were to reach everybody on planet [30:00] Teegeeack, which is what the cult calls planet Earth, every man, woman and child as the cult wants to do, that's 6.6 billion people at $50k a pop, or $330 trillion.

30-40

GA: If I were to reach everybody on planet [30:00] Teegeeack, which is what the cult calls planet Earth, every man, woman and child as the cult wants to do, that's 6.6 billion people at $50k a pop, or $330 trillion. If I pause for a second or two and deliver a new origination in a new unit of time, that's another $330 trillion. Four such of those originations is $1.3 quadrillion. I can do that in less than a minute!

DO: [laughs]

GA: Is that reasonable?

DO: No! Nothing they do is reasonable at this point.

GA: Right, it's completely insane.

DO: I don't blame you for flying in the face of their ridiculous agreement with you. I fully understand why you signed it. I think at this point any of us who are in the know, know how they can really beat you [31:00] down and force your hand where you feel like you don't have an option. Here, in retrospect you're looking at it and saying, "Well, that's just ridiculous. There's no way I could go my whole entire life without ever mentioning Scientology." That would be like a Catholic saying, "OK, I've left the church. Shall I never, ever utter another word about the faith which I called mine for so many years?" It's not fair or reasonable. I guess the courts allowed it.

GA: Right, it's completely nuts. You brought up here a really good subject, and that is the subject of religion. Putting aside just the monetary numbers for a moment, it is absolutely impossible and certainly against the United States constitution to silence someone about a religion, and silence someone about their religious experience within a religion.

DO: Exactly!

GA: Yeah, exactly. [32:00] That is the situation today. This judge, Judge Gary Thomas, did not make any reference to the fact that there was a religion involved and my religious expressions involved about this religion. That is really why I continue to fight to this day. You cannot silence someone about a religion. Certainly, Scientology has done whatever it could to obtain its religious status. I'm not arguing that it's not a religion, because the United States federal government has said it's a religion. The US federal government states, essentially, that any kind of obnoxious, totalitarian, dangerous cult can be a religion. All it has to do [33:00] is determine itself to be a religion, and poof! It's a religion. At this point, although it has been sheer terror for me, very traumatic and destructive of my health and my relationships and family and any number of things, I have no regrets, because ultimately the contract and what Scientology has done to enforce it demonstrates that this is a criminal organization.

Not only am I not allowed to talk about Scientology, I am not allowed to talk about any Scientology organization or affiliated entity. That would include every WISE company around the world and all of their directors, officers, employees, volunteers, [34:00] agents and lawyers. I'm not allowed to talk about Tom Cruise. I'm not allowed to talk about John Travolta, whereas all of these people can say whatever they want about me. Not only that, but each one of these organizations and each one of these individuals, all the officers and agents and lawyers and volunteers, etc., are all named as beneficiaries in this contract. They are all parties to the contract, and they are all parties to the enforcement efforts against me, and they are all parties in the injunction which exists against me. The Gerry Armstrong contract and the efforts to enforce it demonstrate that every [35:00] Scientologist is participating in the global suppression and destruction of human rights.

Their whole human rights facade is a fraud. Youth for Human Rights is a complete fraud. Every person who participates in Youth for Human Rights is a contracted beneficiary of the suppression and destruction of human rights. Every Volunteer Minister is a contracted participant in the suppression and destruction of human rights. Now, it sounds bizarre and it is bizarre. Scientology and all of those people are in fact trapped by this contract by which they sought for all those years to trap me. The contract and the injunction do [36:00] not just apply to me, but they apply to anyone who would act in concert with me, so they also apply to you, Dawn. When you facilitate my words on your site and on the internet, you are acting in concert with me. There are literally millions of people around the world who act in concert with me. All a person has to do to act in concert with me is speak about Scientology, or any of those beneficiaries, or assist any victim of Scientology in any way. Believe me, Anonymous, every one of them, are all acting in concert with Gerry Armstrong pursuant to Scientology's contract and pursuant to orders which have been issued by the Superior Court in California. [37:00]

DO: You know what I say to that. I say I believe in free speech, and this country is built on something called the First Amendment, which is the separation of church and state. If they were to sue me, or you in conjunction with me, they can feel free because I feel pretty confident in this day and age that it wouldn't hold water in court. I think in time, you're right, Gerry. I think there will come a time when you'll be able to come back to the States. The whole judgment against you will be thrown out because it's unconstitutional just like Scientology's unconstitutional. I refuse to be afraid of them. They've hurt too many people. They stalk you.

That's one thing I know people are interested in. If you can, share with us what you know about personal interaction you've had with David Miscavige. Let's remember, you left a long time ago. He was still young at the time, but I know that Larry Brennan [38:00] has said that he's seen one time when he was working with Hubbard, Hubbard instructed David Miscavige as his minion to spit on people and harass people. He stated quite clearly that Miscavige had a special enmity toward you personally. Do you know why? Was that a direct thing or just because of this whole Hubbard biography lawsuit issue? What do you think is going on there in David Miscavige's mind in relation to you, and the whole Anonymous movement for that matter.

GA: It is both personal with Miscavige and it is organization-wide because of the threat that I represent to Scientology and to their tax-exempt status and a number of their operations around the world. Yes, [39:00] he does hate me personally. He has been involved personally in crimes against me. In 1984 my car was burglarized, broken into, and a briefcase containing a manuscript which I'd written and a bunch of original artwork which I had done [was stolen]. My attorney at the time made a demand on the organization, a demand on him to return my materials. The organization of course denied having them. Years later two people who defected from the organization both came to me and both told me [40:00] that Miscavige told them that he personally had possession of the things which had been stolen from me.

40-50

GA: Years later two people who defected from the organization both came to me and both told me [40:00] that Miscavige told them that he personally had possession of the things which had been stolen from me. He described them to them, and they both described them to me. He definitely was personally involved in having my car broken into and the theft of my materials. I knew him inside the organization. He was a bully inside. He still is a bully. He's a sociopath, and he has been responsible for virtually every fair game act against me since Hubbard died, and even before then. Miscavige claims to have taken over the Guardian's Office and set up the Office of Special Affairs, [41:00] which he renamed from the Guardian's Office. Everything that has been done for me, I hold him personally responsible for.

I have been assaulted on six occasions. As I mentioned, they broke into my car and stole my materials. They've spied on me and Caroline, my former wife. They've terrorized my neighbors, scared my family. Their head PI threatened to assassinate me, threatened to put a bullet between my eyes. What you mentioned earlier on, they terrorized me in California and in Germany on highways. They've paid a Los Angeles Police Department officer for fake authorizations to wiretap [42:00] me and my attorney. The cult claims to this day that it was police-sanctioned, that the police department authorized them to videotape me and wiretap me. Completely false! The head of the LAPD chief issued this scathing denunciation of the operation. The officer who signed these phony authorizations was removed from the force.

As I've mentioned, they've fair-gamed my attorney. They have attempted numerous times to have [43:00] me prosecuted on false criminal charges in Los Angeles and even in Russia. They have, with the Los Angeles District Attorney, and with the prosecutor in Katerinaberg, Russia, and with the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Boston. They've sued me six times, forced me into bankruptcy, driven me from my home in the States and driven me up here into Canada and, as I've mentioned, continued to fair-game up here. They've forged a pile of internet postings under my name, some of which are racist postings that make me look like a racist. They have filed and carried out a massive black propaganda about me virtually around the [44:00] world, to governments around the world, to clergy, to media, to of course their own people, to law enforcement. It is truly massive.

One thing, I think, which is very important, and this is what brought me to leave the States and come to Canada, Scientology filed in its IRS Form 1023 application, which is the document that a 501(3) corporation files to get tax exemption, some ten pages of the most scathing black propaganda on me that you can imagine. They did this during a period of time when they believed that they had to silence. [45:00] If I had responded to the IRS to correct that black propaganda that they had filed to get the tax exemption, I could have even gone to jail. Scientology's tax exemption, in my viewpoint, is based completely on this fraudulent filing which Miscavige and his very corrupt attorneys made to the IRS. I left the States. I got my first internet connection at the beginning of 1997. I was just surfing around and checking out "Gerry Armstrong" and, clang! Up came this part of the 1023 submission at that time. That's when I realized that this cult and David Miscavige will stop at nothing to silence me. I packed up my things, little bit that I had, [46:00] and headed out for Canada.

I believe that, unless the Scientology organization comes to its senses and somebody takes care of him, this guy's going to have me killed. He's completely mad and a very violent sociopath. You've had some great witnesses on your program who have seen Miscavige, and themselves been beaten by Miscavige, but have seen him physically beat people. Those are people who are his juniors, who are devoted to him, who gave their lives to him, who are completely dedicated Scientologists. Just think what that little sociopath would do to someone like me, a wog out here who really threatened his house of cards [47:00] and his billion-dollar tax exemption. I believe that he will. Unless somebody removes him, he will do whatever it takes to assassinate me.

DO: Gerry, you worked pretty closely and you knew L. Ron Hubbard. He was at your wedding, for crying out loud. You were on the Apollo, so I'm sure you have a lot of firsthand eyewitness accounts of L. Ron Hubbard. Do you think that the church of Scientology would be in the predicament it is now, having this negative campaign and a whole army of people protesting against them, if L. Ron Hubbard were still here and running things? Do you think that David Miscavige is merely a more youthful representation of L. Ron Hubbard's own paranoia and desire to control people? Who do you think is worse, if you can compare the two?

GA: I believe that Miscavige is worse. He is not as smart as Hubbard. He's not a very bright guy. He's more of a physical sociopath, more of a violent criminal than Hubbard was. I don't think that Hubbard would have let it go that far, but it's really, really hard to say. Miscavige was extraordinarily stupid in his reaction to the Anonymous movement which has originated recently. It's typical of him, but if he had not reacted in the way he has and not labelled this mass of people all as terrorists, probably it would not have achieved the power that it now has to confront the organization. For all of those Anonymous people, there's no going back now. All of them know that they are not terrorists. All of them know that they really are good people trying to do a good thing. They all have wonderful senses of humor. For Miscavige to have labelled them the way he did, there's just no going back and it's essentially over. I believe that the cult's days are truly numbered and so are Miscavige's. For years I [50:00] thought, "It cannot go on."

I'll start on 55-60

Here's a draft.

GA: ... and they know it, and they dare not come [55:00] into court. Now, they still threaten, and in fact one of the - both lawyers that I know of who have been threatening Anonymous are lawyers who've been involved in the suppression and destruction of my rights. Andy Wilson and his firm in California and ... Eric Leiberman, I guess, In New York. Both of those guys, they're unscrupulous they're dishonest, and they are what makes it possible for sociopath Miscavige to continue to run that cult. In any case, on the legal front they're losing. On the financial front their income is being impacted severely. In the public relations arena [56:00] It's a disaster for them. All kinds of people are speaking out. These protests that are going on on a monthly basis are genius, and causing them tremendous problems. Look at Maisonneuve, their article that just came out on my story. A few years ago Scientology would have sued them in a flash. I'll bet you that they don't. Now, It's true that Bruce, and the magazine, and the publisher and all the people the people there are now going to be fair game, but fair game at this point will probably mean that there will be covert investigations done of their pasts, of their connections, and then It'll sit there, and Scientology [57:00] dare not do anything more than that because a million people will jump on the bandwagon, and essentially expose the cult for what its doing. You know they did nothing about South Park.

DO: That's a good example. I mean, there are a lot of things that they haven't responded to. You know, we have a call. I try not to take calls too many times now cause I never know what I'm gonna get, but I'm gonna see who this is, and if it's full of scary we'll just cut him off Gerry. So don't worry. Maybe he'll have a question for you. So hang with me and lets see how this goes okay?

GA: Sure.

DO: Caller, are you on line? ... Hello? ... 832, are you there? Hello? Can you hear me? [58:00] You're live. Do you have a question for Gerry? ... Okay maybe not. Well, If you wanna ask Gerry a question let me know in the chatroom. Otherwise I'm gonna put you on mute cause maybe you are just calling in to listen to the show. Okay Gerry. I know who that person was I had been told there might be some - You still there with me Gerry?

GA: Sure.

DO: Okay. I've been told there might be some calls that would come in so I was kinda looking for - that was - I don't know that person did not want to speak. Maybe they were a little afraid or something. Who knows? One of the questions I did want to ask you, and hopefully It's something you can talk to us about. I was told that you had a very interesting incident with Mike Rinder, and there's something about a park bench. I don't know if that brings about to you - Is that something that you're familiar with?

GA: Oh Sure.

DO: Would you be willing to talk to us a little bit about that? [59:00]

GA: Sure.

DO: OK that'd be great.

GA: Yeah, I knew Mike Rinder inside. I knew him on the Apollo back in the 70's, and you know we were reasonably friendly when I was on the Sea Organization, and following my trial in 1984 I was contacted by a Scientology intelligence operative by the name of Dan Sherman, and Dan Sherman was a writer of spy stories, and he's now the official L. Ron Hubbard biographer. So he was actually on project orders for the organization and running an Intel op on me virtually from the day that I left the organization. There's a [1:00:00] document ...

50-55

GA: For years I [50:00] thought, "It cannot go on." Yet it has gone on, and it's going to continue to go on a bit longer, but not that much longer. Every day that all of us keep standing up, that's one day closer, because this thing is going to end. I think it would have ended even with Hubbard in control.

You remember Hubbard fled. He went into hiding without being faced with anything like what Scientology is facing now. They had the media cowed for many years. Small things, small litigation claims by people drove Hubbard into hiding. I think he would have done the same thing now. I think we'll see the same thing with Miscavige. It's hard [51:00] to say. I think that it would have been much the same, but Miscavige is worse than Hubbard.

DO: That's good, and you're certainly someone who can make that distinction. What do you think Miscavige will do? I've had a lot of ex-Scientologists on the show and they all sort of said the same thing: "as long as we, the media, Anonymous, the ex-Scientologists, and the old guard of critics, continue to apply the pressure and inform the public, cut them off from recruiting people." It's hard to get to those hard-core SO people. They're sequestered. There's plenty of people, celebrity ones, who just have no clue of the abuses. If we can change the public perception then that will eventually cut them off. What do you think, in the end times as they grow near, Miscavige's endgame will be? [52:00] He's sort of a violent sociopath. Do you think he'll do something really horrific, or will he just flee the country like L. Ron Hubbard did?

GA: I think he would flee. I would pray that he would flee rather than pull a Jim Jones. Hubbard, as bad as he was, did not go around striking his juniors. It's true that he invented the RPF and he assigned people to the RPF, but he did not pull those mad things on the level of the musical chairs incident, and mad things on the level of what has been done to a number of the people that you've had on, really good people.

By the way, bless you for having them on, because [53:00] a number of those interviews really moved Caroline and me. It validated what I had been involved in for all these years. I was just grateful that you had done it. I was grateful that somehow I had continued to stand up through all of the fair game and all of the threats. That's the reason why I've done it. It's somehow to have this organization end, the victimization of all of these good people, who are my brothers and sisters. I was a dedicated Scientologist and dedicated Sea Org member. They all are good people. I love them all, and I love all the Anonymous guys who are now standing up. [54:00] This is a very exciting time. It's a scary time, but it's also very exciting.

I believe that on all fronts Scientology is going to begin to lose. You'll notice that they no longer can get away with the same stuff that they've been getting away with in court. Essentially, their litigation teeth have been pulled. They have not done anything further with me in litigation since the fall of 2007. I think that, in great part, that's because so many people now, Anonymous etc., watch every Scientologist around the world and all of their organizations around the world. When they do anything, boom! It's up on the internet in a flash. They know it, and they dare not come into [55:00] court.

Originally Posted by Anon Fifty Seven

[sounds like miz a nerve]

Maisonneuve

RISE FROM THE GRAVE, THREAD (and my account)! RIIIIISE!

Kaminonymous serves, and shall take all that remains. (or not.) 60-80, at any rate.

80-90

GA: I tried to put together some research and some of his material and some of his memorabilia and stuff, to present it so that it would give the Scientologists [80:00] a bit of a thrill and raise some money. In the process of researching it I went to the library of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and determined that Hubbard had not in fact written the screenplay to "Dive Bomber." Then I found that he had written all kinds of contradictory information about that period of his life, the key period when he claimed to have been crippled and blinded at the end of the war and had cured himself with Dianetics. The truth was, he was not crippled, not blinded. In another document he claimed that after the war [81:00] he went on a cruise and that he had ten thousand dollars salted away or stuck away in a safety deposit box somewhere as a result of doing the screenplay for "Dive Bomber." There was just a wealth of contradictions and different stories which Hubbard had told about that period. It turned out that right after the war he was involved in the Crowleyite black magic and was participating with John Whiteside Parsons in Pasadena in occult black magic practices. That's really what he was doing. The "Dive Bomber" story was a complete fraud. That was the first contradiction which I spotted.

After [82:00] that they just began to fall one after the other. I had been lured into the organization and kept there and slaving for Hubbard and being abused by Hubbard. I was RPFed twice by Hubbard personally. He broke up my marriage and did whatever he could to enslave me on the basis of his claims that he was a nuclear physicist and a war hero and had done all these wonderful explorations, had been to India. It went on and on and on. I began, through use of his own archive, to debunk all of these stories which I had been told and believed and had been [83:00] helping him spread as a dedicated Scientologist and Sea Org member all those years. Through those years I had possession of his materials for two years inside. I knew very soon that I could not tell anyone about all the things I was finding because if I spoke out I would become a target and I'd be removed from my position.

Toward the end of my stay inside I began to speak out. I began to critique all of these biographical sketches and other biographical materials which he had written or had the organization write about him, and began to criticize the various [84:00] lies that I was discovering, but I also found at that time that the organization was not going to change. The cult head at that time right underneath David Miscavige ordered that I be sec-checked. A security check, for those who don't know, is a very invasive, very nasty interrogation using the e-meter. They pry into everything in your life, your whole history, sexual history, all your connections, your family history, everything that's embarrassing, everything for which you could be prosecuted. They record all this information. Then they use it to keep you in the organization or to attack you if you threaten to leave or if you [85:00] leave. By that time I was of a frame of mind where I was not going to be sec-checked, and I made plans to leave. Not long after that I did leave. My wife Jocelyn and I at the time escaped. We did not tell our organization seniors that we were intending to leave, or even that we had any upset or criticisms of the organization, because I would have been locked up, we would have been separated, and given the state that I was in at that time and my building defiance, I believe I would have been never allowed to leave and very likely killed.

DO: I'm certainly glad that has not happened, but the threat still looms. It still looms for you. [86:00] It looms for Larry. It looms for anyone who speaks out about the Church of Scientology, which is why it is so important that we continue to apply pressure, because there is safety in numbers. I think about what the old guard has done virtually on their own. You had each other but you didn't have this mass of people who were aware and watching and keeping an eye on things. When I go to Enturbulation [enturbulation.org] and I see the vast number of folks and how much people are paying attention to what's going on, it's comforting to know that there are these people out there that if something happens to you or me that at least the world would know. It wouldn't be another Lisa McPherson where you just don't know what happened to that person.

I have one more question for you before we run out of time. Chuck Beatty in the chat room wants to know what your take is on Danny Sherman. This is something I'm not familiar with, but it sounds like something you know a fair amount about. I hope I [87:00] got the name right. I'm trying to find it up here.

GA: Yeah, Dan Sherman. As I mentioned, we were friends inside, and then he pretended to be my friend after I left. He ran this intel op on me for years. I believe that Dan Sherman is not a sociopath. He's not an utterly dishonest, corrupt, violent individual like David Miscavige. He has a conscience, but at the same time he supports Miscavige. He supports the organization, and he uses his talents as a writer for very immoral purposes. Dan Sherman is another one. I think that he is a very scared individual, [88:00] which is sad because he's very likely a good guy. I would welcome Dan getting some courage and coming out and really telling the truth.

Remember, David Miscavige has all of the material that I had. David Miscavige knows that everything about Hubbard is an utter lie. David Miscavige knows that he himself is lying. Dan Sherman knows that he's lying. Dan Sherman knows that Hubbard was a pathological liar. I like the guy. He was a friend, but he works for the cult. He works for Miscavige. He really has to come to grips with the immoral dishonest activities he's now involved in. [89:00]

DO: Was he part of that whole Mike Rinder thing, the entrapment process for you?

GA: Oh, yeah.

DO: OK, so he was one of those. Now I'm understanding the picture here. That's sad, and that's a good example. Here's a guy you know has morals. You know he's not a depraved person, yet he's put in a position where he has to do something that probably goes against his better judgment or his own internal moral code. That's what any cult does. That's what people need to realize. In many ways Scientology is unique simply because it has gained a mainstream appeal, but in all the ways that cults are bad, it's just like those cults. It's just like Jim Jones. It's just like the David Koreshes and the Waco, Texas things or the Heaven's Gate, where they [90:00] drink the magic Kool-Aid and the magic Kool-Aid does not give you super powers.