Transcript: Larry Brennan Interview

This thread is for transcribing the Glosslip interview with ex-Scientologist Larry Brennan.

Larry Brennan spoke on the Affidavit recently released, the structure of Scientology, the IRS and tax exemption, Gregg in Boston, and much more!
The audio for this interview is available here.

To get started, look at the roster below for an available time slot and reply to this message with which time slot you would like to transcribe. When you are finished, you can edit that post or post a new message with the text ... it's easy as that!

There is a roster below, with start time (working in 10 minute blocks, please transcribe until the end of the sentence in your block so we get some overlap ;) Precede each section with initials of who is speaking it (e.g. 'DO' for Dawn Olsen)

Start Time | Transcriber
0:00 - Eff
10:00 - Eff
20:00 - Eff
30:00 - An0n1nNZ
40:00 - CherrieZ
50:00 - CherrieZ
1:00:00 - Bulle / anon.txt
1:10:00 - CherrieZ
1:20:00 - its.an0nym0us
End
(i.e. I will transcribe from 30 minutes into the interview, to the end of the sentence around 40 minutes) Hope this make sense, if not please ask :)

See this thread for tips on Transcription (including Tools to use and Guidelines)

I'm back and ready to ROCK the transcripts :)

I shall complete 40:00-50:00 to start with. I love Larry's interviews, they're SOOOOO deliciously scandalous

I'll take the first two segments, 0:00 - 20:00.

Transcript of Glosslip Larry Brennan interview, 0:00 - 10:00

[00:00]DO:Good evening, Glosslip radio listeners. I hope everyone is having a nice Mother's Day; I certainly did. I just jumped out of seeing Iron Man. We almost watched it to the end, but this was more exciting so I had to rush home so I could talk to our very exciting guest this evening. We have Larry Brennan. He is a former Scientologist and he's agreed to come on the show and talk to us about his various experiences within the Church of Scientology. He was also—this is kind of interesting—tacit to his experience, he was in the Guardian's Office, which... for those of us who are new to the Scientology thing, the Guardian's Office is what I believe is OSA now. I could be completely wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure that is what we newcomers to this fight call OSA. And Larry has lots of really interesting things to tell us about his experience during the 80s,
[01:00]and he worked in the Guardian's Office when L. Ron Hubbard was still alive and semi-in-charge. So I will not blab much longer because people are here to hear Larry, and so I just want to welcome Larry to the show. Thank you so much for being here!

LB: Oh thanks Dawn, it's a real pleasure to be here.

DO: You and I were just talking today. You said it was the first Boston Anonymous protest that you missed because you had to work.

LB: I hated it! I tried so hard to get out of work but I was the only one in my office that could do a certain job that had to happen until 3:00 Saturday afternoon, and I'm about 70 miles north of Boston, so... I absolutely have had a ball at all three of the other ones in Boston, but I just couldn't make this one, I'm very sorry to say. But I'll definitely be at the next one.

DO: It's okay. That's what's so great about Anonymous; when one person can't make it, you've got ten more who will step in on your behalf.

LB: Boy, that's true.

DO: And the numbers keep growing. And I see in the chat room people from Boston miss you.
[02:00]We have a picture of you at the previous one in April on the website, and you look very cheerful. You look like a very fine Irishman.

LB: [laughs] Well it was great. It's hard not to be cheerful around those guys. What an upbeat incredible group of people. I haven't had that much fun in years.

DO: Yeah, Boston. It seems... the one I went to was in DC, and that was also an extremely upbeat crowd. In many ways, having seen many other kinds of protests throughout my life, that's what I really like about this. It's not a frightening experience, it's not an angry experience, it's sort of like, "Okay, we're going to inform the public but we're going to be cheerful about it because we don't really want to turn people off. We don't want to scare anybody away. We want it to be as friendly as we possibly can." It's almost like the opposite of Scientology itself, you know?

LB: Oh boy, I'll say.
[03:00]And there'll be something before the end of the show that I'll want to talk about, because that's exactly right what you say. And I would like to take some time to talk about the scene with Gregg [Housh] and the phony charges against him in Boston. But I'll tie that into some other stuff from the affidavit.

DO: The first thing I want to ask you about, which is on everybody's mind, is can you verify the authenticity of that affidavit that's floating around out there?

LB: Yeah, I did write it. The surprising thing is, I haven't been in the chat rooms posting or anything for a couple of days, but I was really surprised that it got out like it did! Because I did write it, and I read some of the questions about it, and I wrote it and I filed it with—I'm not going to say which one—I filed it with a government agency that wanted it. And that's one of the main reasons why I wrote it, although I was planning on doing something like that for a while.
[04:00]I sent it to about seven or eight people including yourself, because it was relevant to the upcoming show. And I didn't post it on any of the forums where I post. And then I went online and all of a sudden, WHOA! It's on Clambake and Enturbulation and ARS and exseaorg and exscientologist. I went, Oh my God! So, when I saw where it was posted, I didn't actually have it posted there or anything. Some people, maybe being a little bit over exuberant about it, had posted some information that wasn't quite right. For example, I wasn't in on the 1993 IRS deal. Now I did a lot that lead to that deal, and I did meet the IRS in the 1980s on behalf of organized Scientology.
[05:00]But I wasn't part of that deal in 1993 that was mentioned on that one site. But other than that, everything was pretty factual. So yeah, it is my affidavit. I did write it. It has been filed with a government department. And as I said in the affidavit, it's going to be available to anyone that wants to do something about some of the wrongs and injustices that are covered by that affidavit.

DO: Well, I think Anonymous absolutely wants to do things to right the wrongs that are covered in that, and we are definitely going to talk about that. One of the things I noticed you did right away, which is something I would suggest... I think Arnie Lerma was the one who told me: at some point, Dawn, if you're going to pursue this, you need to get out there on record that you are of sound mind and body and that you are not suicidal. However you want to put it, you've got to put it out there. And that was something you had to put in that affidavit. What was your impetus for doing so?

LB: Well, it was because of this.
[06:00]I saw the thing with Shawn Lonsdale. I don't have any evidence at all that Scientology was involved in this death. And I just thought it was the most tearful, unbelievable thing, but it reminded me of reading all those documents about how they were deciding whether to kill Paulette Cooper or not. And there was a decision in that whole Operation Freakout thing by the intel people in the Guardian's Office, whether or not to just try to drive her crazy, to back her off, to have her killed. And it made me think that, yes, those people are gone and that dark side of the Guardian's Office—the people that would do crimes like that—are basically out of the pictures as far as I know from organized Scientology. But what's not gone are the policies that they followed in doing that stuff. So it's still the same Hubbard policies where he talks about destroying people utterly and ruining them and getting rid of your enemies and all that. And I know that,
[07:00]this is going off on a tangent here so I won't do it for more than another minute, but I know that the OSA people are run by David Miscavige and I know that he is very strict on the brutal sides of Hubbard policies and all that. So I thought, you know what? If I'm going to die over this darn thing... I mean, I don't want to die. But if I'm going to die, I die. But I don't want them getting away with it if that's what's behind it. So I'm putting it in the affidavit. And hopefully that would give them second thoughts should they go that route... should they even be considering that. And that's all that's behind it.

DO: Right. And that's exactly... obviously, neither do I. And it's pretty sad that when we're talking about a Church, a group that declares themselves a Church, gets protections of a Church, uses the idea of being a Church to hide itself and all the things it does behind that, that you have to worry as a private citizen exercising your free speech,
[08:00]you have to declare these types of things so that people know that if something happens to you, it could be very suspicious. That's really a sad testament. That's kind of the nature of what we're dealing with: a cult that silences its critics any way it can, to the point where people have to be afraid for their own life just to speak out about it. That's just not right. And as much as they want us to shut up, that just makes me want to do it more. Because it's not right.

LB: I feel the same way.

DO: The more they try and stop you, the more you say "No! That's not right!" Somebody, at some point— you know what in my mind, I just want to say this really quick and then I'm gonna get on and let you speak and I'll shut up. It reminds me of World War II Nazi Germany. The people who probably wish they had spoken out but didn't because they were afraid, who knows the number of deaths that were allowed to be committed because people were afraid to speak out.
[09:00]And I just absolutely, every time I get afraid, and it happens a lot, that's what I think of, you know?

LB: Yeah, that's right.

DO: Okay, so enough of that. I just wanted to get that out there. These are just some of the questions people had about that, and I told people I would try. So you were not there for the IRS, the big win for Scientology, getting that 501-C tax-exemption status. But you sort of helped set the stage for that. Can you tell us, while you were in the Guardian's Office, what kind of things you did that, looking back on it now, you deem as being both immoral, illegal, and irresponsible? And I'm not meaning to impugn you, just what you had to do while you were there.

LB: Okay, well first of all let me clarify something. There were two—basically, I suppose you could break this down, there are as many different situations as there are people—but there were basically two parts of the Guardian's Office. One that did actually overt illegal actions on huge proportions.

Transcript of Glosslip Larry Brennan interview, 10:00 - 20:00

[10:00]LB: One that did actually overt illegal actions on huge proportions. Like breaking into the US Government and infiltrating and thinking of killing Paulette Cooper and just dirty ops and dirty tricks. Now, not everybody in the Guardian's Office knew of that stuff. So although the Guardian's Office was greatly maligned and it should have been taken down, I mean because top leaders were involved in that criminal stuff, still most people in there didn't know about it and wouldn't have done that stuff. The problem is, most people in the Guardian's Office, just like most people on Scientology staff today in my opinion, like whether they're in the Sea Org or the Commodore's Messenger's Organization or whatever, are probably pretty good people. Just very dedicated and believe in what they're doing. And they, just like so many people in the GO didn't know about all those crimes, the vast majority of staff in Scientology have no clue of the crimes and perjuries and abuses
[11:00]on the part of Miscavige and organized Scientology. So having said that, what I've done were... that I regret, I suppose if I went back in time, I'd say "I wish I wasn't such a dupe into thinking Hubbard was a genius and everything he said I have to justify", and even if I saw something wrong in it, I would think, "Well, there's something wrong with me. I don't have enough of a confront of evil" or however he put it. I have to abide by what he says and back him up and support him. And I think that attitude and that mentality is kind of like a brainwashing, and I don't know if brainwashing's the right term, but it's like having a cloud over you. In every other part of life, you can see something and say, oh, that's wrong. But here, you see Hubbard do something wrong and you say, oh, it must be for the greatest good. Or something like that. So I think it's that attitude.
[12:00]Basically, my role in doing the corporate sort-out of Scientology, what I regret in it is not the intention behind it... because the declaration covers the intention, that it was going to be straight and clean this time and all that. But it was what a dupe I was to hand all— to be such a big part of handing all this power to Miscavige. Because if you look at it, the corporate evolution went in on about the 10th or so of December, some time in December 1981, like the Church of Scientology International gets started. And then a whole lot of other things get implemented that month, and the next few months of '82 and all that. And once that goes in, Miscavige starts his major wholesale abuses and beatings because he thinks he has a powerful legal structure. And if you look at even the book "A Piece of Blue Sky" or some of the affidavits since then, for example,
[13:00]the mission holders' meeting that happened after that corporate sort-out. Where doors were locked and Miscavige went in with the financial police and some of his top dogs and just abused the heck out of mission holders and extorted them for millions of dollars, gang-bang Sec Checking, screaming in their faces, that sort of stuff. Well, part of that briefing, and I wasn't at that mission holders' meeting, I was at the next one, but part of that briefing was a corporate briefing saying we've got our corporate structure straight now and now we're moving in and we're taking over the missions and we're going to get you to toe the line and we're strong now. It's just that idea that some of us put that structure together with a benign view of... yes, we believed Scientology and Hubbard at the time, but we believed everything was going to be straightened out and all the frauds of the past were going to be gone and this was going to be a new defensible structure, and it was nothing but a cover. So what I regret is being a dupe,
[14:00]in the sense of believing that the work we did was going to be what happened in reality as opposed to being something used by Miscavige to abuse other people. I don't know, does that make sense?

DO: Yeah, that does make sense. So what would you say... let's say I'm a lawyer, for example, we had the Sklar's lawyer Jeffrey Zuckerman on. And his client is suing the IRS for similar— what they would like are the same tax-exemption status, they want the same privileges as the Church of Scientology has. They're an Orthodox Jewish couple that sends their children off to Jewish religious schooling. So let's say I'm a lawyer and I'm fighting against the Church of Scientology and the IRS.
[15:00]What would you say was the most illegal aspect of their tax-exempt status that they have now? Why do they not deserve it—I mean, WE know why they don't deserve it—but what about it did they do to get that status that makes it so that they have something special no other religion has? Can you explain that?

LB: Well first of all, I wasn't in on exactly how they got the IRS into that amenable frame of mind. By the way, that used to be the product of B-1, Bureau One, a more amenable frame of mind on the part of all enemies. [laughs] And it was interpreted by them to mean using terrorist tactics, now that made people so afraid of you that they'd be afraid to speak out or they would just let you get away with whatever. So anyway, what they did to get the IRS into that amenable frame of mind, I don't know. But I can comment on why they didn't deserve it, from two perspectives. One, from what I know, and two, from what I'm told.
[16:00]The part from what I'm told, because I wasn't there then—and I believe there will be people testifying to this—is that in the several years of that negotiation, there were phony records created. There were real records hidden, buried, destroyed, as part of preparing the stuff to the IRS, that I believe would have ensured they would NOT have gotten the tax-exemption had they not lied. And that I can't speak on with any personal knowledge other than I've spoken with or seen the writings of people who were involved who say that happened. Some of whom I believe will testify. Now, for the things that I do know why they didn't deserve it? Well, I have read a number of their filings to the IRS even though I wasn't involved in it. And my background is, I set up those companies or most of those companies. I also was the only Scientology staff member to meet with the IRS after the corporate evolution in their headquarters in DC.
[17:00]So I'm familiar with what their attitude was, and it wasn't positive! [laughs]

DO: Right.

LB: But what we set up ended up being... what Scientology filed with them was all these statements about "here's who runs this, here's who runs the finances, here's what these corporations do, these corporations are unrelated to those and are not run by them, and this one doesn't have to do with that" and it was all a lie. To give it a crude overall basically correct summary, it's one big international organization hiding behind numerous corporate veils. That's not what they told the IRS! For example, Miscavige completely runs those organizations by running the top people in them. Most notably, Church of Scientology International. But even in the early years of his takeover, when he was in Author Services which was a for-profit company that wasn't supposed to be involved
[18:00]in organized Scientology's management. He ran the two top organizations of Scientology, which was the mother Church—Church of Scientology International—and the Religious Technology Unit—RTC—by running the top people in all of them. For example, he ran me who was in charge of Spec Unit and all those external affairs things. He ran Steve Marlowe who was running RTC. And he ran Mark Yeager and Mark Ingbert and top guys in the watchdog committee part of Church of Scientology International that managed the lower churches. So that was all lies. And it was all controlled by him. And millions and millions was funneled to Hubbard in fraudulent ways through that time period. And that certainly wasn't spoken to the IRS! Now what they did, if you noticed, the Church paid twelve and a half million dollars for the past. I suspect if the real truth was known, that bill would have been a heck of a lot more than twelve and a half million dollars.
[19:00]But whether or not it would have, all of those filings about those being separately-run companies and corporate integrity being in place and Miscavige not being involved are lies. So I would think that's fraud. I mean I'm not an attorney, but I would think that would show, that alone... forget the hidden records or the phony documents or whatever. That alone should show that since they lied in pertinent, relevant information filed with the IRS, that it at least should be reopened. I mean, wouldn't you?

DO: Yeah! Do you think there is enough body of evidence that this can be proven? What would it take to reopen this, do you think? And I know you're not... this isn't your specialization but this is the kind of information we want disseminated as much as possible and I know that Mr. Zuckerman, he's definitely open to any help his clients can get and we're certainly— the Church has yet to, no one has turned over this special agreement. We don't really know what it says.

[20:00]LB: Well, I think it first of all would have to be the IRS being willing to do it.

Transcript from Larry Brennan on Glosslip Radio [40:00-50:00]

[40:00]
LB: …this isn’t that land where that’s going to be run by Scientology policy this is the land that’s run by the US Constitution and you can’t throw somebody in jail for speaking their mind or your not supposed to be able to, right?!

DO: Right.

LB: So they went into a HUGE scenario where every day “We need this guy in jail…” and I’d say “He didn’t do anything wrong!” He stole a mailing list…No…he went and got a mailing list per his post per his actual JOB and it was like…but they wanted ** because they were being pressured from Miscavidge to get a head on a pike and it didn’t matter to them that the person was innocent or guilty they needed to have a head on a pike. And I look at Gregg’s thing and I go “Oh my God its 1982 all over again!! And they want a head on a pike, they want to take Anonymous down and they want to get people prosecuted for crimes no matter how made up they are and then use that in other ** all over the world…”look we’ve got a criminal in Boston we’ve got a criminal here and we’ve got a criminal there…” And the fact that they will be just ruining this guy’s life or so they
[41:00]
would like to doesn’t affect them and it…Hubbard policies, which I didn’t bring, I don’t have with me right now are very clear to destroy people like this and to even make up things on them and that’s exactly what’s happening and I’ll tell you, let me tell you something…about this ‘church’ quote/unquote in Boston. Ummm, Gerard Renna is the guy in the Department of Special Affairs who’s speaking out about Anonymous being the criminals and he’s behind, he’s doing the footwork with the attorney behind trying to get Gregg prosecuted…years ago when I was quote/unquote ‘in good standing’ I was not on staff but I was a public Scientologist, Gerard contacted me because Stacey Young and Bob Minton were at Bob Minton’s place in New Hampshire and he asked me to come and we’re gonna harass him we’re gonna picket them saying that they’re having wild
[42:00]
affairs and all this other stuff and I said “Gerard, first of all it’s the guy’s property, secondly, why is it your business and thirdly how do you know they’re having affairs?” “Well, we don’t but we’re going to harass them,” right…I said “Gerard this is absolutely insane and I refuse to take part in it.” Well about a week later I get a call from him and he says “Well we shoulda listened to you a shot was fired, apparently by Bob Minton, the police came and there was a lot of hassels and I guess there were police records on this right now; but that same guy that’s trying to get Gregg had no problem just ‘Fair Gaming’ anybody who was quote/unquote ‘considered an enemy of the “church”’ And that was, not only as I’m saying about its their policy and how it was done by Miscavidge in ’82, its also done by the same guy who’s after Gregg now and if you want to know what the heart of this church is…umm…I’m not going to mention the guys name because of his family but some years ago, again when I was a public Scientologist, I got a call and what happened was a young man from Massachusetts who was a Scientologist shot himself
[43:00]
in the head, blew his brains out and killed himself. Just before he did that he wrote a note to his parents apologizing that he was going to do it and he asked for a Scientology funeral. I found out that the church of Scientology were denying the parents the funeral because they didn’t have money to pay for him and so I talked with a person, I wont even name her name because she might be out now, in organized Scientology in Boston and could not convince them I said “His parents are completely distraught, the boy’s dead there’s nothing worse that could happen in life why can’t you DO something…you’re supposed to be a religion.” They’re not going to do it they don’t have time and the parents can’t pay for it. So I went to a costume shop, bought a Roman minister’s collar and went and did a Scientology funeral…

DO: Ughhh…

LB: And it was very hard…ughhh…one second…

[44:00]
DO: You know, that right there I know of someone, and she’s in the chatroom, I know of a story that personally has compelled me a tremendous amount I mean its something I think about any time I get afraid and go “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t be doing this, this is really hard work,” this poor woman her family’s been completely destroyed and as compelling as her individual story is I know her story is like so many I can not believe the number of actual suicides related to the church of Scientology, it has to be inordinately high compared to other religions by the percentage of actual number of Scientologists and its not even just people IN Scientology its anyone affiliated with it, anybody criticizing it…its, its…I don’t know maybe they do have special mind powers that we just don’t know about or it’s the level of frustration or just how they get inside your mind and wear you down…

LB: Yup

[45:00]
DO: …because that is the saddest to me because I mean its one thing to be killed which, you know, there’s the possibility that they’ve done that too and I’m going to say that’s ‘alleged’, you know I don’t think its been proven at this point that they’ve done that but they do seem to have absolutely no moral ambiguity about pushing somebody to the edge of suicide…

LB: Yup

DO: And I just don’t understand why there’s no connection…I know WE’RE making that connection, but outside of our critical community why they don’t see that this is a threat to, you know, I don’t know, the very fabric of our being because suicide whatever you’re religious beliefs is a very violent thing for people to have to deal with and that to me is so distressing and so damaging to a family to have to deal with that and you’re listing this particular case and then you have Lisa MacPherson and you have this particular case I have in my mind and there are just so many. Look at the young girl from Norway…

LB: Yup

DO: Who was in France…she wasn’t even IN Scientology!! She was just affiliated with it, it’s just too weird.

[46:00]
LB: Well I’ll tell ya because they take Hubbard…it takes a long time I think and it’s certainly took for me to get out of the whole mind screw-up, I’m trying to not say ‘F’ words or anything on your show here *laughs* the ‘mind meld’ or whatever…but I will tell you that after a while you look at this thing and you just go…it took the paranoia of one man and the other’s insanity and made a religion out of it. I mean its just saying that the whole world’s after me, the psychiatrists are after me, the World Bank is after me, the great health monopolies of the world I used to write programs like that for the GO, are after me, we must destroy everybody who speaks against me and us…and that’s like insanity. And that’s like a religion now…quote/unquote. And uhh, I mean just to show you some people asked me for example related to this you know like umm I made a statement at the end of my affidavit that, about really what they want is world control and
[47:00]
this is what will happen if there’s world control and I had a couple of emails from people asking me about that…do you mind if a make a couple other quotes about that from Hubbard?

DO: You talk about whatever you want Larry its your show.

LB: Ok, well one guy, a really bright guy from somewhere on enturbulation on a string about my affidavit quoted that and then he said, here’s the policy from Hubbard, so here it is just a couple of sentences. So this is from a thing called Future ORG Trends, ORG meaning organization:

January 9th 1962 by Hubbard

“You want to know what happens when you clear everybody in that neighborhood? The only thing that the Scientology center can become used for is a political center because by that time, by the time you’ve done all this you ARE the government. Once the world is ‘clear’, a nation, a state, a city or a village the Scientology organization in the area becomes the government and once this has taken place the only policy accepted as ‘valid’ is Scientology policy.”

[48:00]
That means good-bye US Constitution, good-bye Magna Carta, good-bye the Constitution of Germany…Hello RPF, disconnection…umm, I mean it’s unreal I mean another little one even shorter this is another policy letter for January ’66 about Hubbards relationship to ORGs and it says, one sentence “Somebody someday will say this is illegal by then be sure the ORGs (that’s the Scientology organization) say what is legal or not.” This is, I’m telling you there is SO much stuff I didn’t make up any of these paragraphs I could talk forever. I want to go into parts of this affidavit if we get the chance later but this is his game and I’ll even tell ya you know how they talk about how there’s, you get this guy Tommy Davis who just doesn’t even have a remote clue and he’s on CNN right…

DO: Right.

[49:00]
LB: And he’s talking about, “and we’re expanding and you know whatever three thousand five hundred of these…” Let me tell you something, first of all I have gotten over…I’VE gotten imagine that, over 35 emails from San Diego ORG about their ideal ORG pleading for donations even asking the public to hock their jewelry so they can buy this new building and it doesn’t have anything to do with the expansion of San Diego organization it has to do with, you know, buying that property and raising millions of dollars more from public Scientologists taking advantage of them so that can go in the coffers. Here’s a quote on the same thing the ideal ORG buildings it shows how the Vancouver organization can’t pay for their building they have all these events run by the public and it goes and this person by the name of Hillary is getting all kinds of celebrities like Kirstie Alley and all these people to go there and get people to donate and they get levels of membership for donating and they quote in their newsletter why they have these buildings and it’s a Hubbard quote from a Hubbard information letter of 25 February 1962 called “It Can Be Done,” and it says:
[50:00]
“Social order today is very much in need of repair and replacement, we have people who have failed to make nothing of the enemy and who then begin to make nothing of their friends. To make nothing of the enemy requires a strong position for ourselves we can not fire from nowhere we need a base a fortress a steady firing platform.”

I'll keep going up to 60:00.

Taking 20:00 - 30:00 also.

Transcript of Glosslip Larry Brennan interview, 20:00 - 30:00

[20:00]LB: Well, I think it first of all would have to be the IRS being willing to do it. And that presupposes there's not some underhanded reason for this exemption. But presuming that there's not, then the IRS has to be willing to re-look at it. And assuming they would be, then you would certainly need the evidence filed on these points. I could certainly testify to that effect, to the effect of what I said. But more pertinently, there are many others, it's not just me, there's twenty people who can testify the key pieces of this. You see, what's happened in the past for about a year now, I've been pushing an inquiry, a 144-or-so question investigation by FACTnet going into all kinds of alleged crimes and abuses and all that on the part of Miscavige and organized Scientology. And the biggest reason I was pushing that, well, one, I wanted the truth out. And two, I knew that only through a number of people coming forth— they could crush any individual. But if it's overwhelming...
[21:00]if forty people come out and tell the truth, all who have pieces of that, something's going to be done. And you see, what happens is a lot of people think—and I've had a lot of emails, so I know this—a lot of people think that what they know won't make a difference so they don't say anything. For example, somebody may have witnessed Miscavige beating somebody. And they go, "Well that's... that's a misdemeanor, the statute of limitation expired ten years ago. That doesn't mean anything." Well yeah, it does mean anything! Because, for example, and I'm just using this as an example, if you're trying to show, to tell the truth that he really runs organized Scientology... well, the fact that he can take top executives, beat them, send them into prison camps, and run their positions certainly shows he controls it. So that little piece of data that that one person had could be invaluable in proving the case. And I guess what I was trying to say, I've done some postings on this in the last year or so.
[22:00]What I was trying to say is the truth that will make a difference. And the greatest weapon against organized Scientology is truth. If people are willing to speak out and enough people will tell the truth, it will be overwhelming. And if nothing else, the IRS or somebody's going to have to be shamed into doing this something about this. You know?

DO: Right.

LB: And that's what I think it takes. Because I felt a year ago like I was on an island. Like I was the only one of the new people potentially speaking out that was really speaking out, and there wasn't anybody to coordinate with. But yet there's been heroes like [Arnie] Lerma and Gerry Armstrong and many of these people, right, that've been around for a long time. But there still wasn't anybody new to speak with. And then when I started speaking with people, I found they all felt the same way. It was amazing! Probably seven or eight people said to me, "I feel like I'm on an island." I said, "Oh my God! That's how I feel!"
[23:00]So that's why I really pushed that FACTnet thing, because it was a way—one way, even if it's just going to be tabulated by somebody in a back office and prepared for attorneys or for a government submission—at least everybody can feel like their little piece of information can make a difference. And I think that the difficulty has been that there's nobody in a civil sense who's out there fighting these guys, and there isn't anybody who was looking for people to come up with information. So what we needed to do was band together ourselves and just say, you know what, there's so many abuses; let's tell the truth and let's start with the truth and take it from there. And sure enough, you've seen now on various of the forums, what, at least four other people? And on your very radio show, talking about abuses and Miscavige really running things and all that. If he has, under penalty of perjury, affidavits filed in courts
[24:00]and in submissions to the IRS that he doesn't run the Church, what better than that to prove it? And I just think that it's just people coming together and speaking out and getting it somewhere, so I decided it's got to go somewhere so I did my first affidavit and it got filed with a government department. So that's a start.

DO: That is a start. And there's several of these. I'm wondering... we've got Graham Berry. Here's this genius lawyer guy who he knows so much and he's been fighting the Church of Scientology forever. You've got to think, with the people like you... you've got Chuck [Beatty], I know there's Jefferson Hawkins, and Arnie [Lerma], the list goes on and on, of ex-Scientologists. Now granted, there's the Old Guard of critics like Mark [Bunker] and Andreas [Heldal-Lund], but what we need are people who were there and witnesses, like eye-witnesses. What do you think it would take to get a number of these people together to create some kind of class action lawsuit? I'm not sure what angle you want to take,
[25:00]if you want to say you've been defrauded, the beatings, whatever it is, the collusion on the part of the Church of Scientology to... there's so many things that you could go after them for, whether it's the disconnection policy or the RPF or the tax-exemption. Do you think there's a possibility for that, Larry, and how do we go about doing that? Because I'm at the point now where I really really want to see this go to the next step. Take it to the next legal step and really put the pressure on the Church of Scientology, because they've just been sliding for so long that it's almost like people have accepted them and their abuses in society. And it's got to stop.

LB: I agree. And I think, Dawn, that there's two ways: one is the obvious barrier— civilly and criminally, that's the two ways. The obvious barrier has been, okay fine, who's got an action, who's got the deep pockets or whatever
[26:00]to ask people to come and all give their information and do something, right? And at the moment, that's nobody. However, irregardless of that, there are courageous, articulate, knowledgeable people like Graham Berry who are standing there to do something about it. And I can't give anything away but what I can say is, what is wanted, and what some people are cooperating with, are these details of the beatings and all that so that a filing can be made criminally on it. Now, attorneys have to worry about things like statute of limitations. Uh, that was just a misdemeanor. Misdemeanor had a one year statute of limitations; the incident was five years ago. Well, I say there's more to it. It isn't just beatings, it's this: you have a man who covertly controls a multibillion dollar enterprise and he greatly—and he lies about it—
[27:00]he greatly beats and abuses the top people in it. He holds it together by disconnection, which is a form of extortion as far as I'm concerned. In other words, "If you speak out about me beating you, you're going to lose your whole family. You're going to lose your immortal future", whatever. I think those things—and I am not a lawyer—create a whole new statute of limitations. It isn't just the issue that "five years ago he punched me, so there's nothing legally you can do about it." That is one piece of a thousand pieces that tie into a much bigger story of a criminal filing from my viewpoint than just beatings.

DO: Oh yeah, absolutely.

LB: So I believe that there are... and again, I'm hesitating because I really can't give any information away that I know is being worked on, but I believe there are people
[28:00]who are collecting that sort of information so that the filing can be done. Now, civilly, I also can't say right now... I do have a little bit of information but it's kind of privileged. But in addition to that, two of the things that have come up that relate to letting our government work for us. When I went to Germany last September, I met with Ursula Caberta, and by the way she's an awesome person and I did a post on her. One of the things that she requested, because she gets so much grief from the US State Department on... well, remember how you were talking about Scientology's like the Nazis, and no one dealt with the Nazis early on and all that? Well, if anybody knows that, it's Germany. They've seen the abuses, and a lot of people living there are second- and third-generation of people who have been abused by Nazis or who have been in a society that was run by Nazis.
[29:00]And in Germany, they are fighting organized Scientology because they see the Nazi thing happening. They're not trying to wait for organized Scientology to, as it were, run the world. They're trying to stop it now before the German Constitution is replaced with Scientology policy and RPFs and whatever else that they want to have. So there are other governments that to one degree or another are of that frame of mind and want to do something about it. So I would say, one thing anyone can do who has any information is simply report it. Ursula asked that in the United States, people just write a simple one-page letter to their Congressmen and Senators if they were involved with disconnection or Fair Game or whatever... just to let them know, because the IRS or the FBI or whomever, they have a very short time frame where they have to respond to a letter from Congress. Like, if I wrote to the FBI,
[30:00]they could respond next year.

Transcript of Glosslip Larry Brennan interview, 50:00 - 1:00:00

[50:00]
And this is the reason they have all these new ideal ORG buildings, its like this is so insane its unbelievable. It shows two things, one they’re NOT expanding that’s not why they’re getting these quote/unquote ‘ideal ORG buildings’ they’re fooling a lot of people into donating millions of dollars and its all for these reasons of, all the reasons they use is they will clap and cheer over are these insane things about taking over the world and I sent this to somebody in Canada and said because they just got pledges for a million dollars from that event I said “You know there are pledges in Vancouver for a million
[51:00]
dollars so they can get a firing platform to shot on people who are against Scientology!” Does anybody want to KNOW that information?! *laughs* And…its just unreal.

DO: You know… what is the silver bullet Larry because I keep looking for the silver bullet that’s going to take them down and it’s almost as though there really isn’t one it has to be a number of things coming together because they’re very good at hiding what they do.

LB: That’s right, well I’m going to tell you something there is a rather, in my opinion, brilliant anonymous video and I’m looking for a note on it and I may not be able to find it but in any event and its about the strategy on dealing with Scientology and it’s and it talks about those uhhh you know how just the truth is the greatest weapon against Scientology against the horrific lies and abuses and so on and so forth. It might be those, you know how you get the big monster coming at you and ti might be forty
[52:00]
thousand little cuts or chinks in the armor are what’s going to take it down it isn’t going to be one big blow and I feel I and a number of other people can be a part of this to show the fraud behind it, you know, what they’re using to go after people like Gregg and all this other stuff you know the cloaking that they’re using is false. You know, somebody…ANYBODY gets charged with disrupting a religious service like they try to press against people that is such a load of crap I mean I know why they’re called a religion and it’s not for religious reasons. Anyway, I don’t think there’s a one-punch knock out thing I think its going to be a lot of people coming forward and telling the truth of what happens and I can not STRESS how incredibly important what Anonymous is doing to raise this awareness every month with thousands of people around the world because without that any number of us would have been blown out of the water by now as we try to speak out we’re just part of a bigger commitment here it’s no ‘organization’
[53:00]
but to me its sort of like this, its like David Miscavidge and people in OSA will immediately talk about Anonymous being terrorists and all these enemies out there right and that’s what the problem is they have no clue that their crimes and abuses are what people are reacting too they have no idea that they’re their problem, right…

DO: Right

LB: And I can point this out how Hubbard didn’t even know that by using a quote from my affidavit in a minute but they have NO IDEA so they’re going after everybody else when they’re the root of the problem and I think, you know I don’t know how to put it but in the Anonymous video it goes uhhh “branding organized Scientology for what it really is is all that’s necessary for human nature to take care of it,” you know if people really understand what it is and maybe its human nature or maybe its karma or whatever by its my belief that the destruction of organized Scientology is by David Miscavidge and that started decades ago. It started with each person he beat, it started with each person he
[54:00]
cheated, every person he destroyed financially, every family that was disconnected and that whether its karma or human nature or whatever people are becoming aware of that. You can’t put on somebody like their recent spokesman who hardly can keep his eyes open but, who will just lie and I mean even the broad public knows he’s lying and it’s a human reaction to this and Anonymous is the best manifestation of it…you know, along with a lot of individual critics. Anyway…

DO: Yeah

LB: That’s my view.

DO: No, I think you’re right I…you know, for us I think my generation and that certainly definitely includes people in Anonymous I mean you know Anonymous is made up of kind of everybody I mean there’s no one age group but it is definitely a younger generation makes up the core of it and I like to think that though I’m older I’m part of that…we’re very, we’re impatient we’d like to see something happen quickly. I’m very impressed how long they’ve stuck with it. When I started to follow it I was just sort of
[55:00]
seeing how was this going to go how long is this going to last and I think as it goes on they really are digging in their heels now, Anonymous is, cuz each WIN really does propel them to the next, its almost like they’re addicted too the next WIN as Scientology is to their next WIN and it really is a matter of who is going to outlast the other until the kinks start to add up and become just a huge open festering sore they can no longer patch up with a Tommy Davis line**(?)…even mainstream media is catching on. They’re slow…they’re real slow we NEED that class action suit I mean that really has to happen because I think that’s…it’s almost like the ‘evil eye of Sauron’ from you know the…that’s how I see Scientology…

LB: *starts laughing hard*

DO: …with Aragorn here and Gandalf over there…that’s Anonymous and their all sorta firing from all levels while Frodo is sneaking in the back door trying to throw that
[56:00]
ring in there and get rid of David Miscavidge…I mean, its like this epic battle of good versus evil and I know to Anonymous they do sort of see it in those terms and that makes it all the more ‘fun’…it’s not FUN, but it is fun I mean because you’re helping people…

LB: You should feel GOOD about doing something good. You can be upbeat and dance and sing and whatever and do something for a good cause MY GOD what’s wrong with that?! Scientology couldn’t even imagine that it’s so far above any level in Scientology that, you know, it’s not worth commenting. Anyway I agree. There’s a couple of questions that I know that I’ve gotten I’ve seen in the sites and all that for example…

DO: Yeah.
[57:00]
LB: On my affidavit I quoted Hubbard about Scientology missions international and there was a lot of back and forth about people wanting wondering if that was actually Hubbard’s document or was it made up or whatever, well first of all if anybody would like to Google it you can actually find that letter mentioned a number of times on the internet now this doesn’t necessarily prove anything but, well it will help and it was a letter to let’s see ummm Sue Mithoff and if you Google ‘Sue Mithoff’ plus ‘Hubbard’ you’ll actually see other references from years ago to that letter from Hubbard. I happen to remember it and I’m not going to give my source for getting this letter but I happen to remember it from when I was in GOWW, GO Worldwide because we were thinking “Oh my god Hubbard is going to try this crazy…there’s this crazy guy out there selling ministerships and he thinks he’s going to get this huge IRS thing and Hubbard’s going to jump on it and tell us to do it,” and sure enough he did, right.
[58:00]
But what’s interesting about that it’s not only the point I made there where Hubbard clearly uses religious cloaking to cover up making money and non-altruistic purposes there’s a couple other really key things that the untrained eye isn’t going to see in this affidavit…well first of all that it’s by Hubbard and Hubbard’s supposed to be retired then.. HAHA, and this is hardly the only letter, this is one of SCORES of these letters he gave us these same things about ‘controlling why’s’ and the corporate sort out and money to him and there’s tons of this stuff, right, that’s very money motivated but look at this, this is amazing and this ties into something Tommy Davis just did on CNN which is kind of humorous, he said Hubbard in this thing in this affidavit he goes “What has been overlooked here is the reasons why this organization is being created,” this is Scientology’s missions international, “We have just lost now the Christofferson
[59:00]
million dollar judgment because of sloppy contracts and relationship with the franchise network to church of Scientology California,” now stop…this is the scene on that, now most not going to know what’s the significance of that? Remember in my affidavit where I talk about its really Hubbards abuse of policies and false claims and things like that in Scientology that cause these problems it isn’t a corporate situation but Scientology tries to cover up those things with corporate evolutions and religious cloaking well here Hubbard is saying “We lost the Christofferson suit because of a bad sloppy contract and a sloppy corporate thing,” well look at the Christofferson suit…the Christofferson suit was a fraud suit. She was promised, Julie was promised that her IQ would be raised and her eyesight would improve where that she didn’t need to have glasses and she sued because that didn’t happen *laughs* with auditing. So the reason that they lost the suit was because of fraud and false claims from Scientology as per Hubbard’s policy.
[1:00:00]

*I checked the spelling of "Christofferson" to be sure it is correct and it is*